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Graduate School of Coaching Training
Class 2706 - Coaching Proficiency #6: Navigates via Curiosity
December 11, 2002 - 9:00 p.m. EST
Susan Austin, Instructor

Susan: Welcome to you all! This is class #2706, which is proficiency #6. I'm Susan Austin. I just want to talk about this proficiency, which means more to me than any of the others. I've done about 12 of the 14 cities this fall with Thomas Leonard, and this proficiency more so than any other one, coaches understand this intellectually, but the execution is so difficult. I think it's because we're not culturally trained to do this; we're actually trained not to do this. This isn't abut learning t be curious as much as it is abut unlearning not to be curious.

First, we'll have a brief discussion on this and then we'll do a role-play, or 2 role-plays if we have time. I see this all the time where the client shares something and the coach just jumps in with an answer; coaches want to bring value - we have this knee-jerk reaction and we go right into solving the problem or coming up with a solution. Why d you think curiosity is a proficiency? Why do you think it belongs in coaching?

Leslie: I think when it's done genuinely - I think it generates genuineness, as opposed to the old school of 'tell me more abut that.'

Susan: Yes, it's almost like we go into this role with a client where we pepper them with questions, instead of just stepping back and being curious. It's kind of like you're leading them with questions. Good; who else?

Judy: I think when you navigate via curiosity, you're coming from a clean place and generally, it's much easier to establish trust with a client - it doesn't feel like y9u have an agenda.

Susan: Yes, and I think it actually strengthens your intuition. It's like you're trusting the client to know where to go next, or trusting the client that the 2 of you can figure out where t g next. This actually prevents the burden of performance. Who else? Why curiosity?

XXX: Curiosity leads to discovery, and on the client's part, it's much bigger than your discovery.

Susan: Yes, you're actually coming at them with leading questions and that makes the client go into a response mode and actually not want to open up. If you just sit back and get curious, the client can totally open up. Anyone else?

Nick: When we're curious, it lets the client do the work. If the client opens up and explains what their ultimate goal is, it's easier to draw from them and reach that goal.

Susan: Very good point. Everyone should have the experience of coaching a serious client because they open up and do all the work - you almost have trouble keeping up with them. It keeps you out of performance mode and I think that's key. We often feel like we should earn the fee, and a lot of times just being curious will actually take you out of that performance mode and relax your coaching, and from there unexpected value can happen. Why do you think that need is so ingrained in what we do?

XXX: I know that sometimes the value I provide is intangible, so if I can point to the client and say that I solved that problem, that's about as tangible as it gets. A lot of times clients come back and tell me that they value the fact that I was warm and caring and just listened, but I have trouble sometimes convincing myself that those things are value.

Susan; Yes, very good. Anyone else?

XXX: I think for me it's the work ethic; I think there are certain things that I need t do in order to get paid well.

Susan: And it's not enough just to provide the space for 30 minutes?

XXX: Yes.

XXX: I think it's ego.

Susan: Okay, so it's for your own sense of ego? Okay, good. So you can feel validated that your coaching is going well.

Valerie: A far number of coaches attracted to coaching are very bright and have a number of ideas and it's hard to get over the need to share all these ideas.

Susan: And I think the trick to this proficiency is to get over the need to take the client anywhere. Thomas has no need to be the coach; he's been able to get over that somehow.

Tony: I think one of the simplest things is that we like to help people and share what we've learned.

Susan: I think you're right; I think the core of what we want to do is to help them be successful. It's actually a very valuable and valid reason we have it, but the interesting dynamic is that sometimes that need to help gets in the way of helping.

XXX: I'm perceiving that it's not that we don't want to provide value, but it's just that we want to know what that value is that we're providing.

Susan: Yes, and until you get to see how powerful that is, you have to go on blind faith and our natural tendencies override that. I think this model is so powerful, and ever since I've been using it, it's totally changed the way I coach.

Let's talk about what curious looks like on a coaching call. It can be something as simple as someone brings something up and you ask them 'How come?' What are some other ways of being curious on a call?

XXX: The comment you made 'What's that abut?' makes some clients really defensive; the same thing with 'How come?' - they think sometimes you're been accusatory or something.

Susan: That's a good pint. You're going to want to say this in a very neutral, childlike way.

Judy: I was at the Denver intensive where you were talking abut this proficiency - I actually shared it with my 6-year old the next day just to see what he would say.

XXX: You asked what it shows up and sometimes it's just that you go a very different place than the client was leading. Rather than going into the problem they're bringing, You might want to go a different place with that.

Susan: Okay.

XXX: This is probably the most confusing proficiency for me of all of them - I think the confusion is that it's paradoxical to some of the other proficiencies.

Susan: Yes, very good point; it may. This will work hand in hand with some of the other proficiencies, and some of these you will not use. Very few coaches will use all 15. For me, I'm just trying to help my clients get curious themselves. You want the client to find a way to get curious; it's almost like they're not used to people being curious with them. Some people are better at hiding it, but it's still there. If they're coaching you out of curiosity, it's a lighter tone.

Let me just share 3 ways to be curious - and this is on the 'orb' for those of you who have it. (1) you want to care less about having an outcome, and I think this is key. You have to care less about impressing the client, or getting the facts of the situation. (2) You want to let go of the need to provide value, fix what the client is going through, or change them. That's a big one. In order to get this proficiency, you're going to have to be more trusting, more interested - versus interesting, and finally, (3) become more child-like. Let's do a role-play.

I'll share real briefly a scenario I'm going through and then we'll open up and you can practice and just be curious with me. We'll then talk about it in the group whether it's curiosity or not. Okay, here's the scenario. I'm 35 and I was in a 15 year relationship - I've been divorced 2 years - and for the last 2 years I've just been on a huge discovery mode; the best 2 years of my life by far. Now, I've been starting to think about dating again. I'm both nervous and excited, and I'm also unsure what to do. There's something else there, though, and I can feel it - I've been talking about it for weeks and I haven't done anything about it. For some reason, I'm making it a big deal. Who wants to be curious with me?

Patricia: I'm curious, Susan, about the excitement. What's the exciting part?

Susan: Okay, for the sake of the learning, we'll flip it back on your question, rather than me actually answering your questions. . You seemed a little hesitation when you first asked that - were you unsure?

Patricia: No, but it's just a shift in the frame of reference from my therapeutic background which would make me want to ask you what's stopping you.

Susan: Okay - why did you ask that question?

Patricia: Because if you knew what was exciting you, it might help you move forward.

Susan: For a coaching question, that would be a great question, but it's not a pure curiosity question. Who else?

Greg: I wonder why you felt it was important to draw attention to the fact that you were 35.

Susan: And so what's the question?

Greg: Why did you feel it was important to focus attention on your age?

Susan: Okay, and why do you want to know that?

Greg: Because it was strange the way you brought it up and then threw it out of the conversation.

Susan: And so you want to delve in that strangeness a little bit?

Greg: That isn't quite the right word; it's more like you dangled that in front of me, and I'm curious as to where that went.

Susan: Okay, when you just said that, it sounded curious, but the question had a little agenda behind it.

Tony: I'm curious; you mentioned that it's been 2 years since your divorce. What makes you want to start dating now?

Susan: That's a pretty good curious question, but could you lighten the tone a little bit?

Tony: Why do you want to date all of a sudden?

Susan: Okay, that was better. The first one was good, but often the tone will dictate the curiosity more than the words.

Glen: I'm curious, what's the feeling inside?

Susan: I'm confused by the question.

Glen: In response to your comment about the feelings inside, I'm curious about what that feeling is?

Susan: Okay, and why do you want to know that?

Glen: I want to see what's in your body that exists. I guess I'm just curious.

Susan: It could be a curious question, but it almost feels like you put some through into it. I think it is good to draw connections for our clients and draw them out, but I don't know how naturally curious it is. What could you ask that is curious? What would you ask that wouldn't be a helpful question?

Glen: I may be missing this, so….

Susan: Because when I shared it, what was the feeling you had?

Glen: I think it is interesting where people are coming from.

Susan: And I think if you can ask that in a light tone, that will actually open the client up.

Tony: What would a fun date be for you?

Susan: Okay, good, and why did you ask that question?

Tony: I'm curious to get you thinking about a date and what you would do on a date?

Susan: Okay, that's a good question. That would actually get me thinking about what a good date would be.

XXX: When was the last time you went out with someone?

XXX: It almost feels like a perplexing thing, like a riddle within a riddle - there are so many things you don't want to be and curiosity would be like sitting here with my mouth open.

Susan: That's a good idea, because the truth is that I'm going to have more information about this dynamic than you will ever have. Could you be okay to not say anything for 30 minutes and let it just come out of me? if it feels a little uncomfortable, it's because it goes again what we've been trained as coaches to do.

Judy: I just wanted to know, if you and I were having coffee or something, I would just want to know where you want to go with it. What part of this would you want to talk more about?

Susan: Okay because there are like 17 different places we could go with this. I think it would be a clarifying question, rather than strictly a curious question. I would naturally not go to curiosity - I would try to figure out what the real situation is, you know? It's a proficiency - it's a pretty highly sophisticated proficiency, and I think the reason it is that way is because it just goes against the way we've been trained.

Greg: I want to know - does this feel like you're taking a step down a street you haven't been for a while? Is it scary?

Susan: And there was a whole bunch to that question. I think that actually would be a good question, because it's the unknown factor that's the biggest thing, but it's not modeling curiosity.

Greg: Well, for me, it was - it dawned on me that I realize I have no idea what the world looks like from your perspective..

Susan: And so ask that.

Greg: What's the world like to you?

Susan: That's brilliant.

Greg: What's it like to be looking where you're looking, I guess.

Glen: What's dating mean?

Susan: That's a very good one.

Sharon: Who do you want to date?

Susan: I haven't thought about that, and I think that - did she sound curious?

XXX: No (multiple voices)

Susan: There was something in there, Sharon.

Sharon: Have you thought about the kind of person you'd like to date?

Susan: And why would you ask that question?

Sharon: Because I think if you had an idea in mind or could start thinking about it, you would probably be better able to identify the opportunity.

Susan: Okay, does anyone want to take a stab - if you thought all that out, it wasn't curious. None of these questions are bad - they're actually good questions, but this happens so subtly that we don't even know we're doing this.

XXX: Can I come back to this question of 'How come?' I don't like it.

Susan: Then don't use it. If it's not used perfectly, it can sound manipulative.

XXX: What excites you about dating?

Susan: Did you guys think he sounded curious?

XXX: No (multiple voices)

Susan: Why did you ask that question?

XXX: Well, it dawned on me that you mentioned that it excites you and you're worried.

Susan: It's a good question but it didn't feel real curious.

Nick: How about, 'Mom, you're dating; what about Dad?' The biggest thing that goes through a kid's mind is what happened to the other parent.

Susan: You may be taking the child thing a little too literally - I don't have any children! (laugh) unless you wanted to ask me about my ex, and you don't want to do that, right?

Nick: No, I don't.

Rob: When you talked about your friends dating, what's wrong with doing it the way you were doing it?

Susan: It sounds like you're getting me to see where I'm at is okay.

Rob: That wasn't where I was trying to go….

Susan: Okay, maybe I misunderstood.

Rob: There are a lot of us out there like that - people who take time to get back into dating.

Susan: Are you trying to validate me or make me feel okay? That's what it sounded like.

Rob: No, because it's normal as far as I'm concerned.

Susan: I would say that since you have the feeling behind it, you're trying to normalize it.

XXX: It seems like curiosity is very difficult! (laugh)

Susan: And it's a little bit of a set up - if you're trying to be curious, you can't be curious. If you just were curious, it would look a little differently.

Glen: It's about stripping the expectations.

Susan: Yes, the value has to be in the journey. You have to just trust that the value is the curiosity in the whole conversation rather than trying to take them where you think they should go - let curiosity lead you, rather than the other way around.

Patricia: One of the reasons I think this is so difficult is that I spent so much of my life as a therapists, and then coaching has been more towards doing. Now, it's about being!

Susan: Yes, and I think it's really one of those anti-muscle building ones; it's more abut taking away your need, than building up your muscle to do something.

Sharon: I've noticed that you ask why we would ask that question. Is that kind of the litmus test - if we can answer that, then maybe we're not coming from curiosity.

Susan: Yes; and in all the cities we've done this, only 1 or 2 people have been able to come up with a curious question from the get-go and I think that was more luck than anything. I think if you just tone down - when we do the critiquing calls for the coaches, you'll notice that there's an underlying feeling about the way the coaching is going. It'll be a lot lighter. The trick here is that when I first started coaching, I really needed to know - it's only through my coach being openly curious about me and my life that has opened me up. I think it's a direct result of her being curious with me.

Jim: It occurs to me that when a client brings up a point, you have about 3 seconds to be curious; after that, you've thought about it.

Susan: Very good point. The truth is that the gut reaction - that initial intuitiveness is what you want to ask.

Greg: When you mentioned that the proficiency is 'navigates via curiosity', it's really about things that are beyond conversation. It could even be something like doing Internet research on the subject the client brought up….

Susan: That's a good point.

Greg: And I became a different person because I became curious.

Susan: We're coming up at the top of the hour, so I'm curious how this has been helpful, or if you're more frustrated.

XXX: It's an interesting proficiency and it's that you have to be curious in order to be curious.

Susan: Yes, you can't fake this one! Thomas is just really curious all the time, and he just lets that direct the coaching. Who else?

Nick: I'm actually working with a teenager and I think I'm going to have to start being curious with him.

Susan: He's probably not used to that.

Nick: I don't think he's used to it with adults, and I think it's going to help me get into the same place he is.

Susan: Let me know how that goes, will you?

Tony: One thing I got out of it is that it's a valuable tool for the coach to take the pressure off and to get the session going in a nice, easy way.

Susan: Yes, I think just being curious will allow the client to almost ask themselves what's stopping them from doing something.

Patricia:
I'm grateful that I don't have to be great at every proficiency!

Susan: Very good; thank you. Who else?

XXX: This is one of those proficiencies I can't really work on; I just have to be open to it.




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