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Graduate School of Coaching Training
Class 2701 - Coaching Proficiency #1: Engages in Provocative Conversations
December 3, 2002 - 2:00 p.m. EST
Susan Austin, Instructor

Susan: Welcome; let's get started! This is class #2701 - coaching proficiency #1, engaging in provocative conversations. This call is being recorded and transcribed. This is the first time we've led this class at the School of Coaching, so you all are on the leading edge.

This particular proficiency - Thomas didn't put these together in any particular order, but it's interesting in how this became the first one. This one came about as the result of a call Thomas was on talking about the difference between coaching and therapy. The comment about coaches having engaging conversations with our clients really stuck with him; I think that's why it's the first proficiency. Unless a conversation is provocative, it ma not be compelling enough for the client to stay with you for years.

First, we'll talk about the theory behind this proficiency, then we'll have some discussion and a couple role plays; the idea in this class is to get you familiar with the concept and to get you to use this with your clients. Any questions before we get started?

XXX: Just an administrative question; I didn't see this on the web to register?

Susan: I don't know; if it filled up when you went to register, it then gets taken down. First, I'll just set up the proficiencies in general. The reason we wanted to do these is to simplify the coaching process. The reason we have these is that Thomas wanted to articulate what it is that he's doing as a coach. We wanted to get people to see what it is so they can learn this stuff; how to help people become better coaches. Again, it's to simplify the coaching process. Before I had the proficiencies, I provided value, but I was all over the map and it wasn't enough for me as a coach. I don't use all 15; some of these are new for me while some of these are old friends. It's like a 2-year learning stint for me to learn all of these; it's not like you're going to come on the class today and tomorrow be the most provocative coach you know. You're going to continue learning for the long-term, on a level far beyond the material.

The theory behind this is that we're all waiting of life-changing conversation. Thomas says we can change a person's life in 5 minutes. When people hire a coach, I think they want to have their life changed, and that's what being provocative is going to do. You can use the older method where you just sort of push the client along, or you can introduce topics that are much bigger than the clients themselves and have them re-orient around this.

Provocative conversations add long-term value; much longer than any short-term fix you can offer a client. They'll be thinking about it throughout the week or the month; I have an extremely critical eye and actually go over into the negative side. Thomas asked me one day why I was so negative. He didn't tell me to stop being negative, but just asked how come - that conversation has stuck with me for almost 6 months. I'm very aware that life is a blessing, but I have this other side about me that's negative. That question was provocative; it woke me up, if you will.

What does being provocative mean to you? I'd like to open it up to the class.

XXX: Challenging.

XXX: To evoke and not provoke.

Susan: And what do you mean by that?

XXX: I don't know; I'm still learning that. I'm trying to find the middle ground between evoking them, but not provoking them with some negative thought.

Susan: And so maybe you're poking them!

XXX: Maybe!

XXX: The dictionary definition says to incite, to stimulate, or to irritate or vex, but also to stir up, arouse, or call forth.

Susan: And hopefully you'll find there's a way to be provocative so the client can hear it - not too subtle. I love that definition; could you read that again? I would say that it's less than adversarial...

XXX: It's opening up!

Susan: Yes, the client will become opened up; I think it's like I'm pulling out the rug from underneath them, but they're going to be left standing.

Dave: One of the things that I connect with what you're saying and that's about communicating cleanly - I connect that with this. I can have a charge in my voice in terms of what I say, emotion behind it, and I can be rather abrupt. I connect being provocative with communicating cleanly.

Susan: That's a very good point. I think what helps me to not have that charge in it, it's because I'm giving up that need for my clients to hear me and understand me.

Karen: For me, provocative means to shift paradigms and get them out of the normal box they're thinking in.

Susan: Very good; there are different ways to be provocative and will actually do a role play - that's a very good point. Why be provocative?

XXX: To shake things up, as it were.

Susan: Good; what else?

XXX: You don't want the client to be bored!

Susan: And I don't want to be bored either; that's a good point! And if clients aren't being challenged, they're not going to stick around the coaching process.

Deb: I think it's a way for the person to expand.

Susan: Very good. And when they have conversations with their friends, family, or co-workers, they're not really being expanded. It cuts through the ordinary, and it gets and keeps a client's attention. If you're provocative, you'll be able to keep their attention, and it keeps your coaching edgy.

XXX: Where this has gone for me is that I started out thinking I had to be provocative, and the more I look at this, the more I'm oriented towards the person I'm working with. The strange thing is that the more I can stand in their shoes, the more provocative it becomes. I'm entering the conversation and enjoying where they are.

Susan: That's a great point; these proficiencies are phrased in a way to create a partnership with the client. The proficiency is about being provocative, but engaging in provocative conversations.

XXX: I'm very engaged by the conversations; because I'm coming at it from where they are, even if it's a concept that I've gone through a couple of times, I always learn something new.

Susan: When I got into coaching, there was a point when I could be with a lot of the old people I used to hang out with because they bored me to death; they just weren't going anywhere. Thank you for that point.

XXX: One of the things I've found is that if someone is engaging me in a provocative conversation, it's a complete paradigm shift and it changes your whole world. It can be life changing, just that one question.

Susan: Yes; in other words, you'll benefit much greater than just that one-on-one client-coach relationship. I can apply that whole concept to any other topic. There are 3 things to being provocative:

1 - You want to point to something much larger;
2 - point to something much smaller; or
3 - point to something significantly different.

To point to something much smaller, rather than just doing what the client brings to you, it's about working on a solution that keeps the problem from ever occurring again, rather than just fixing the problem.

If you'll turn to the graph that's called 'Being Provocative' - this is a brand-new graph that we can up with - it'll show you about the distinctions in the various type of conversations. The key thing for me is that you actually want to re-orient their whole way of being. It has to be personalized to their situation, obviously, to match what the client is experiencing.

If you go to the next graph which is what Thomas calls 'The Orbs', we're giving you 9 different ways to be provocative. Under ask for something more, for example, introduce a concept that the client has never hear before and applies to what they're going to. The 3rd graph is '12 Ways to be Provocative'. I used to think that as long as my clients were thinking, that was enough, but I wasn't getting them to re-orient at all. I use this chart to help me think outside of my own box and come up with questions that start provocative conversations.

Rather than getting into the details of the problem with their co-worker, I just step back and think, Okay, what's the problem that this person is having, and what's a solution to fixing all their problems, not just this one?' That's the work I have to do as a coach to get to that place. I'd like to do a role play - we can go over more of these, but I think the learning is much richer if we do a role play. Who has a situation they're going through, and then as a group we'll talk about a provocative conversation? Who's got a situation they'd like to share with the class?

Linda: One client I have is a business owner...

Susan: Okay, Linda; let me stop you right there. is this a problem you're having or your client's having?

Linda: This is a problem my client's having.

Susan: I'd like to start with a problem you're having; I want something that's real for us to work on.

Linda: Okay; I'll let you go to someone else.

Carol: I'm not sure how to be engaged with the marketing machine, other than applying myself.

Susan: Okay, can you talk a little more about the problem? Explain the situation you're in.

Linda: I want to spend more coaching and less time marketing and there are a lot of things I've been trying to automate, but it's just continually more details that I have to deal with. I'm not to the point where I want to hire a virtual assistant, but it's taking time from me writing the book I'm writing, teach TeleClasses, and so on.

Susan: Okay, thank you, Carol. I want to do a couple things - I'd like to open it up to the group. What are the different ways you can coach this client? Don't worry about being provocative for now. Where can we go from here?

XXX: I want to know what's the hurry.

XXX: I want to know why she's so resistant to hiring a virtual assistant.

Susan: Okay, good.

XXX: Look at the different marketing things she's doing and cut it down - focus it a bit.

XXX: I'd like to step back a bit and look at her small business plan.

Susan: Okay, good. You can see there are a lot of different ways to use what she brought up as an entry point into coaching. Now, I'd like you to look at the chart on the ways you can be provocative. Let's brainstorm with ways to be provocative with Carol, versus just good coaching to get her out of the problem she's got.

XXX: I would try to change her framework.

Susan: Say more about that.

XXX: So that she would concentrate more on getting the clients and coaching, and less time on the marketing.

Susan: What is the framework she would need to change?

XXX: To spend less time marketing; she's spending too much time marketing and not enough with the clients.

Susan: So you're saying flip it around; interesting. Carol, how does that land?

Carol: That's certainly something I've been trying to do; it's less time marketing than I had the impression that it is, but... I would say that it's a bit helpful, but I don't know if it's too provocative.

XXX: What's coming up for me is a re-frame for me around taking the passion she has for her coaching and her writing, and channeling that energy into her marketing work, so it doesn't continue to drain. She has a passion for coaching, but that passion isn't translating to her marketing efforts. That way getting her energized so she might want to go out and talk about it is where I'd want to look.

Susan: Okay; can you actually state all that you said into one sentence or two?

XXX: I don't know; I'm not very clean yet!

XXX: Is this really about marketing?

Carol: Now that's a provocative question!

Susan: And why did you ask that?

XXX: I was dove-tailing on the last comment; marketing is really a process of connecting with people, and she loves to do that obviously, because she' loves to write and she loves to coach. Maybe it's more about the clarity of the message.

Susan: Say more about that!

XXX: How clear are you on communicating what it is that you're doing?

XXX: And the Thomas Leonard gauge for that is if you can state it in 10 seconds or less! (laugh) I thought that was pretty perceptive!

XXX: Yeah, you're saying the question about whether it's really about marketing.

Susan: Did that feel provocative, Carol?

Carol: Yes, definitely.

Susan: And were you re-oriented or was it just intriguing?

Carol: That's also a good question; only time will tell. I think it's going to take a little bit of time to figure out.

Susan: And obviously, it's about having a provocative conversation, not just a provocative question. if we had time, we could turn this into a conversation that could re-orient the client. Anyone else want to try to be provocative with Carol?

XXX: How could you re-orient others to market for you?

Susan: Okay, tell me what you were trying to go for there.

XXX: To shift her out of she's got to do it. Why does she have to do it? Could others market for her?

Susan: And what would be the reorientation for Carol?

XXX: That she could get out of what marketing currently looks like for her - she could go to groups or organizations that may do work for her. She could go to maybe a healing center, store, or whatever her realm of coaching is. She may be able to get others involved for more word-of-mouth, rather than her doing one-on-one.

Susan: And I'm going to go on a limb here and say that would be an engaging conversation; I want you to take it up a couple of notches and think bigger than her life is. Maybe we can find a way to prevent this problem from ever happening again - I mean this type of problem, not just this particular problem.

XXX: Have you written down what your priorities in life are? My reasoning is that she's finding herself spending a lot of time on doing things she doesn't really want to do.

Susan: And if she has defined success for herself, we don't know what that is. And what's provocative about that?

XXX: I think I'd have to say it in the correct way, but how conscious are we of how we spend every hour or every minute? We may not be aware of it.

Susan: And I don't know if we've actually gone to the level of provocative-ness that will re-orient Carol.

XXX: I think what's missing is asking for help. As coaches, we go to our clients and say, 'you can reach your goals alone, but it's much harder to do that.' What stuck out for me was that she's not ready to reach out and ask for help.

Susan: And you would actually ask how come you're not willing ot ask for help?

XXX: Yes.

Susan: And more importantly, is it a recurring theme? Maybe she hasn't designed her life to support her and make all these things happen.

Brenda: On the opposite side, should we know what the payday is for this? You don't stay in this type of situation unless you know what you're getting from it. What's the upside for you in this situation?

Susan: And I think that's a nice coaching question, but I don't know if it's the level of provocative that we're trying to see here. This proficiency is very much a muscle-building one; what we want to introduce is the concept of getting them to think bigger than they have previously. We want to actually make you a little uncomfortable. Unfortunately, we didn't get her to articulate the full dynamic of what's going on so it's harder to be provocative.

XXX: I want to know why not do it exactly like you're doing it right now - what's wrong with it?

Susan: Yes; find out the source, because maybe we're hearing the symptoms.

XXX: And why have a struggle with the way it is? It's about just being present, and if there's a nudge to it...

XXX: Carol, why are you struggling so much?

Carol: Susan touched on the larger, higher-level idea, which was success. I think the marketing is what I consider success to be. The other thing is that I just wanted to give an example of how Susan engaged in provocative conversation with me a few months ago. I host a study group and I was talking to her about how not a lot of people came, even though they RSVP'd and everything. She asked me what it was I was looking for from this study group, and that really re-oriented things for me.

XXX: Did you expect that it would be a certain size?

Carol: Yes, but what her question was about what are you looking to get, and don't you know?

Julia: Would you give us an example of a provocative question, Susan?

XXX: I would like to explore with Carol looking at marketing as coaching - rather than looking at marketing as a way to bring clients and just do it's own thing; it's just an extension of the coaching. I'm thinking of shifting the idea of the marketing working for the coach, and having the marketing work for the people it touches.

Susan: And how does that land, Carol?

Carol: You know a lot of what people have been saying, I'm thinking that I'm already doing it.

XXX: How will you know when you're getting it just the way you want it?

Susan: Yes; connect the dots for me in being provocative in that question.

XXX: Without even knowing what the problem is, I don't know what we're drilling for. I was finally able to see that nobody knows what the right picture looks like, so I was trying to get back to that.

Susan: That's a useful, helpful nudging, but it's not on the scale of provocativeness. I almost think in order to teach this that I need to come up with a canned scenario that I can give you and then be provocative around that.

XXX: I'm wondering where the resistance is, what's blocking her, and maybe there's a fear of success in there; I'm shooting in the dark, but I think that might be more provocative.

Susan: I would take that approach too, but I want to create a gap on this call so you can see the distinction of being truly provocative and just good coaching.

XXX: Can I try a question? What if you stopped doing what you don't like to do?

Susan: Again, I don't know how that's reorienting her; I'm going to actually stop this role play - I didn't set you guys up for success here. I thought using a real model would be good, but I'm re-thinking that.

XXX: Do you have something that would illustrate an example?

XXX: How about number 12 on the frameworks? Then, we rise above the marketing issue and we can then talk about opportunity.

Susan: Good; I think you'll know when you get to that spot - I think the client will either wake up or go quiet. You've heard that a lot of it she's doing on some level, but we haven't re-oriented.

XXX: I think the provocative is in the client; it's not about coming to the right question.

Susan: Yes; that's good coaching, but we're still not at the provocative conversation stage. I don't have enough information to give you a demo on how to be truly provocative with this material.

XXX: I think everything we brought up was all compelling directions to go in, and I don't want to - where's the line?

Susan: You'll know it when you cross it, how's that? I would like to go around the room and get some feedback. What are you taking away from today?

XXX: I'm taking away a question of what's provocative.

XXX: I want to come up with a good provocative question.

XXX: I'm leaving frustrated, and when I did the training a couple of weeks ago, I was frustrated and it continues to be for me.




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