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Graduate School of Coaching Training
Class 2701 - Coaching Proficiency #1: Engages in Provocative Conversations
December 17, 2002 - 6:00 p.m. EST
Susan Austin, Instructor

Susan: Welcome; this is class #2701 - engages in provocative conversations. My name is Susan Austin. We will be transcribing and recording this call, just so you know. I just want to quickly set up that one of the reasons - we've purposely phrased these proficiencies to be 'partnership-based'; a two-way street between you and your client. The proficiencies, as you start to get into them, are what I call a '5-year play', meaning that they'll take you 5 years to really master. Keep immersing yourself in these, design your environments to use these, and keep experimenting. If you're not comfortable experimenting with your clients, get a couple of pro bono ones and work with them.

Okay, let's talk about engaging in a provocative conversation. The reason this became proficiency was that Thomas was on a call talking about the difference between coaching and therapy. At the end of the call, someone made a comment that they just make sure they have provocative conversations. That stuck with him, and he made it the first proficiency. It also prevents a nice chat. The coaching critiques will be back up on the website soon, and it's good to listen to them.

Let me ask you - what does provocative mean to you? What do you think of?

XXX: Not stepping over everything.

Susan: Say a little bit more about that.

XXX: Not just ignoring the things people say that may be the real issue they're dealing with.

Susan: Yes; a lot of times clients will step over it themselves, or cover it up with other stuff. So you're saying by strong attention to that, you can engage in a provocative conversation? Very good. What else?

XXX: A question that makes you sit up and want to run away! (laugh)

Susan: Okay! (laugh) I like to call it 'we pull the rug out, but they're left standing.'

XXX: I think with a coaching relationship, it's checking out their blind spots because no one else is going to do that. They want it, but they don't know how to ask for it.

Susan: That's great! A lot of times when I first start working with a client, I'll tell them this is what I do - mention the unmentionable and ask if they're okay with that. Very good. Anyone else?

Anna: I think of provocative and how that word is different from 'evocative' - it's an action that the coach is actually taking, where they're taking some action to create a movement for a client.

Susan: That's a good point. As you pointed out, you can be bringing other things in from left field.

Matt: One of the key points for me is that it's interactive for the client; I can provoke by myself. I guess maybe I could, but... (laugh) if I'm doing all the work and the client's just sitting there, that's not provocative. You have to engage the client in some way.

Susan: Very good point. You could be provocative, but unless you're engaging the client, it's not going to work. If you look at the graph on being provocative, the more you can make it a bigger rug-pull as well as making it personal, that's how you can get into the 'provocative zone', if you will. Then, the client will re-orient around what you're talking about; if they're not engaged, they'll just nod their head. Thomas says that we're all waiting for a life-changing conversation. When I started becoming a coach, I would find myself at a certain level of frustration when I hung out with my non-coach friends because we talk at a level that we're accustomed to.

Patricia: When you first opened the conversation, I thought provocative was edgy; from the direction of the conversation, it's really not necessarily edgy, but more purposeful. Is edgy a piece of it?

Susan: It can be. The proficiencies are unique in that you get to put your flavor in the way you handle each of these. I think that's just going to be natural for any coach, no matter when they come from. It can actually ebb and flow throughout the call, based on what the coach brings to it.

Ed: So, what would be the distinction between edgy and provocative?

Susan: There can be edginess in being provocative, but the purpose is not to be edgy; it's to be provocative.

Ed: Okay.

Susan: I think sometimes too it depends on the client; if you have a client that's typically edgy, you might not have to be that way to be provocative with that person. I can be edgy with one person and then very soft with another person, and they're both provocative conversations.

Anna: That was too hard to follow!

Susan: Okay! (laugh) let's talk about why be provocative. Why do this proficiency? What's the benefit for the client and the coach?

XXX: It's more fun!

Susan: Totally more fun!

Loretta: I think you get someplace; otherwise, you're just having a polite conversation with somebody and you're not being real.

XXX: Talking about the minutiae of the week!

XXX: It's truly not about - most people don't really have people they can talk to about what's going on in their lives and they're afraid to do that initially.

Susan: Yes; in this book I'm reading, the author talks about being tranquilized by our lives - it almost takes a coach to shake them out of that.

XXX: And many people are trained to be polite all the time, and in most cases, they don't talk about anything.

XXX: Just before you mentioned that, I was thinking about how provocative conversations are like Emeril's cooking - he takes it up a notch. When you go into a provocative conversation, you could be working on something, but if you point out a larger game or big distinction, you've taken that up a notch.

Susan: Yes; when you find yourself dipping back into the mundane, you'll have to keep taking it back up a notch. Clients will come in not knowing how to have that high-end conversation.

XXX: One of the things I'm finding as a new coach, I'm being provocative without even knowing I'm doing it; one of my clients said to me that I took her places and raised issues that probably nobody else would've and yet I felt like I've been being so careful.

Susan: That's a good point. You hear all this stuff - there's so much material that's edgy, and we assume people are hearing this elsewhere, and it's almost mundane to us. People aren't hearing it other places, though, and we'll go through some of the concepts that are second-nature to us, but for the client it's a whole new way of looking at their lives.

XXX: One of the things that provocative has done for me is to make it faster - both as a coach and a client. A couple of times I could've helped the client work through something, but it just short-circuited around a whole series of work straight to the endpoint.

Susan: Yes; it gets right to the heart of it. Another thing it does is get and keeps a client's attention. There are a million things coming at them, and if you're coaching is simply the norm, you're in the midst of all that traffic. It also keeps yourself intrigued - have you ever been on a call where you're so bored? This will prevent that!

Wendy: I almost think provocative conversation is synonymous with coaching - if you're not having a provocative conversation, you're not really coaching.

Susan: You would think that, but I've heard plenty of conversations that are not provocative. Our tagline used to be that 'everyone is a coach' which we've now changed to 'there's a coach in everyone'. The more effective coaches, I think, are provocative.

Okay, let's talk about keys to being provocative. Thomas has keys for each of these and I encourage you to print these off and review them. Each proficiency has 3 areas with sub-areas underneath and a paragraph describing that.

XXX: Did the 'orb' come in our notes?

Susan: Yes, it should have. I'll describe it really quickly; to engage in a provocative conversation, there are 3 areas to really help you do that well. They are:

(1) Suggest something more - we mean something much more, like a possibility the client hadn't thought of, a new concept that's different from what the client is thinking about.
(2) Ask for something less - if someone is having problems, Thomas will ask why they're having problems at all. That's a great opening to 3 or 4 coaching calls on that concept.
(3) Decline to work on something - Thomas will generally not work on something unless it's something that he's excited about. In doing that, there's a provocative nature in doing that because it'll wake the client up a bit.

XXX: He doesn't just say, 'you're so boring I can't handle it'? (laugh)

Susan: And a lot of times, if clients say they want to be successful, he won't work with them on that. Another way is:

(4) Do something different.

So how do you know when you're being provocative enough?

XXX: Clients are making changes.

Susan: Yes; opportunities will open up for the client. Good; who else?

Ed: I think you'll move away from being in a typical routine, and it'll be much more unique because you allow their creativity to come to life.

Susan; Yes.

XXX: One of the filters I use is to make sure that I have no agenda in it, no investment.

Susan: So it's like a merging of this proficiency and navigating via curiosity.

XXX: I guess; there's just something really powerful about that.

XXX: The clients know it, and they'll say something at the end of the conversation to let you know what they thought.

Susan: Yes; they're definitely engaged. If you look at the orb, you'll see both ends of the spectrum. The coaching is definitely stimulating.

Anna: Might that also be measured by silence?

Susan: Silence on the client's part? Definitely. When the client gets very quiet, that's a very good sign - usually it means you've tapped into something big. You guys up for a role play? How provocative do you feel?

XXX: Not tonight; I have a headache! (laugh)

Susan: Yes - you can actually be light and provocative all in the same breath! If you're going to rock their world, you might as well have them enjoy it. I'll be the client and simply bring up a scenario, and then we'll bring up different ways you can coach this client and NOT be provocative, and then we'll switch it around and talk about being provocative. Are you ready?

XXX: Sure (multiple voices).

Susan: My week - sometimes I think I'm doing good work and this week - I just feel like I'm undoing everything we've been doing all along. I thought I'd handled the situation with my boss that we talked about last week. This week, he came back from his trip and gave me twice as much work as he was before. I'm going to end right there, but what are some ways you wouldn't be provocative?

XXX: To go with where the client is and stay with the symptoms and talk about what a victim the person is.

XXX: It's kind of like 'let's have a bad day together.'

Susan: One way for me would be to talk about their work and see what they're working on. the problem with that is that it helps the client in this situation - you can help them through the immediate problem but they're no more prepared for when it happens next week. Does anyone have another one where you could engage and not be provocative?

XXX: You were talking about all this more workload, and talk about some of the things you've been doing that you've been undoing.

Susan: Getting enmeshed in the client's stuff, if you will, is hard to have a provocative conversation around.

XXX: Same old story!

XXX: We've all been there.

Susan: Okay, good. Let's switch gears and let's come at it from a place of provocative conversations. Patricia, say again what you said earlier.

Patricia: I'm hearing a bit of a victim here; what are your thoughts on that topic?

Susan: I would say that's provocative; what do you all think?

XXX: I would agree.

XXX: You could almost go into sharing the framework at that point; you could take them to the next level by saying that life is not about us, and it's not always personal. Do you want to talk about that?

Susan: Yes; that one framework could change a client's life.

XXX: I also would think - I've never done this, but - you could say, 'given the level that you're at, why are you having problems at all?'

Susan: I would totally agree! What's something - looking at our orb here - what's a way to have a provocative conversation and talk about absence of?

XXX: What about if you ask what's the boss' problem?

Susan: And what do you mean?

XXX: Well, the boss is giving her a lot of work for some reason, and he's by-passed her request.

Susan: That's a good point because you could go with the client - there may be a reason the boss keeps giving her some extra work, and you could get the client to sniff around and find out.

XXX: And go into the notion of 'we teach people how to treat us'.

Susan: Yes, I'm finding that the more I screw up, the less work I have - my new motto! (laugh)

XXX: I would think the flipside would be the client having any absence of reacting.

Susan: That would be a great conversation to have!

XXX: You might ask, 'How much of this work is important and how much of it is urgent?'

Susan: Okay; getting the client to look at it differently.

XXX: There's a book called 'Eat that Frog' and the concept is that we spend most of our time doing the small, unimportant things when the things that would actually make a difference in our lives are at the bottom of the priority list.

Susan: Yes, that client has pretty much that mentality, doesn't she?

XXX: There are many ways that people can deal with some of those things, if they take time to figure out what they are.

Susan: Yes; anyone else?

XXX: When somebody's complaining like that, I'll remind them that they have choices.

XXX: My first thought was to ask, 'is this really a satisfying job for you?' and go into the whole conversation about whether this is a job that fulfills you.

Susan: Okay, good!

Katherine: I'd also be curious to know if this shows up elsewhere in their life.

Susan: And see where else they might be a victim? Interesting.

Katherine: Taking on overwhelm, more than they can comfortably manage.

Susan: Yes; the dynamic is bigger here than the workload she has this week. You actually re-orient the client around the conversation, and you could actually spend the next 6 months working on that. Until they figure this out, this is going to pull them down wherever they go.

XXX: I would ask them, 'Is this this week or is it all the time?'

Susan: And that'll give you a good sense, because even if they lie, it'll come back up really quick. Thomas won't ever challenge a client, so you won't ever overdo this proficiency, but you can also use other proficiencies; that's what makes the ebb and flow of coaching so interesting. The ability to weave in all 15 of these is really powerful.

Let's end the role play there; I'm curious how this will help you be a better coach. Wow! Real powerful, huh?

XXX: Provocative - you struck us into silence! (laugh)

Anna: I think the specificity that came out in this class - many more details than were available before really helpful to me.

XXX: The distinction between what was provocative and not provocative.

Ariel: I've listened to this call twice now, and I know that I'm provocative, but I don't know that, and I'm not sure I know how to be provocative. I want more out of this, and I'm not quite sure how to get it.

Susan: Yeah, and maybe when we do the paragraph on how to start doing it. We did give you some specific ways, so it's quite possible that you do it so naturally that you're not seeing it.

XXX: I think that's very likely. I'm wondering if there's another way for you to present this is more detail; I'd like to develop this further.

Susan; I'll pass that along; if you have any ideas on that, it would be great.

XXX: I think an e-course every few days with an example - kind of like the daily distinction.

Susan: That's a great idea; it's almost like we'll have a kit or something to package these concepts.

XXX: For me, there were 2 things that were useful - one was the sheet of ways to be provocative; it gave me some things to think about when I'm on a call. The other one was to think about the 180 degrees - that I could say something or be silent.

Susan: Thank you for reminding me about the sheets. They're included as links to the website.

XXX: I think a great thing for me is that provocative conversation is not a matter of style, but it's almost a concept.

XXX: I'd like to have the decision-makers at my job have provocative conversations with me, but it's almost about a way of being at a company, if you will - provocative marketing, for example.

Susan: Okay; great! Anyone else? Okay, I want to wish you a happy holiday and look forward to seeing you on a future call!




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